(Somebody close to the Pope needs to sneak him a Bible into the Vatican.)
“Brothers and sisters, this is our God: Jesus, King of Peace, who rejects war, whom no one can use to justify war,” Leo said. “He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them, saying: ‘Even though you make many prayers, I will not listen: your hands are full of blood.’” (This IS NOT Jesus speaking, but Isiah.)
That passage is Isaiah 1:15, and the pope took it entirely out of context.
Isaiah was a prophet in the southern Hebraic kingdom of Judah who lived during the life of King Hezekiah. The warnings God gave through Isaiah have nothing to do with war, but the sin and idolatry in the people's hearts.
The entire chapter, and the wider book of Isaiah, has to do with God's disgust at religious hypocrisy and abuse of justice.
God hates reckless bloodshed, but He isn't against war. In fact, many times He has blessed warriors and commanded wars!
Did God not listen to the prayers of all the Popes that started wars?
First Crusade (1095–1099) — Called by Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont.
Fourth Crusade (1202–1204) — Initiated by Pope Innocent III.
Fifth Crusade (1217–1221) — Proclaimed by Pope Honorius III.
Albigensian Crusade (1209–1229, against Cathar heretics) — Launched by Pope Innocent III.
War of the League of Cambrai (1508–1516) — Pope Julius II formed the anti-Venetian league.
War of the Eight Saints (1375–1378) — Pope Gregory XI excommunicated Florence and sent forces against the Italian coalition.
Psalm 144:1 (A Psalm of David.) Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:.
Is it blasphemy to twist Scripture to fit some dopey, hippy view of God so that the Bible fits neatly in a 21st-century liberal worldview?
Not a good pope since John Paul II. Bunch of leftists, commie sympathizers.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Catholic but from what I've seen, agreeing with you, the recent Popes haven't opened their Bibles in quite a while.
DeleteI was raised Protestant and made the mistake of marrying a Catholic. At some point she arranged for us to take an adult Catholic catechism class. I agreed since everything I knew about Catholicism was second or third hand.
ReplyDeleteFirst, Catholic Church does not consider the Bible authoritative; church tradition trumps the Bible everytime.
The Catholic Church is adamant that Mary, the mother of Jesus was without sin her entire life. Furthermore, they believe that you cannot just ask for forgiveness, but works are required for salvation. This means that what Jesus did on the cross was both unnecessary and insufficient for salvation.
There are plenty of other issues with the Catholic Church, but I believe that one alone should be sufficient to wonder if the Catholic Church should be considered Christian. From my perspective, the heart of Christianity is what Christ did on the cross and what it takes/took for salvation. From that perspective, Catholics are not Christian. Most have only a passing understanding of the Bible, which makes sense since in their view it is not authoritative.
You have some confusion about what Catholics believe. I would suggest you retake the adult catechism class because you clearly didn’t pay attention the first time.
DeleteAmong the many things you have wrong, Catholics absolutely believe that you can simply ask for forgiveness. It’s called confession. We do it all the time.
The part about “works” comes from “faith without works” meaning that simply giving lip service to something or simply saying that you have faith is meaningless, if you don’t back it up. Do as I say AND do as I do. Not just repeat the words Jesus said and do whatever you want.
Anon 8:54: Ever since I became a Christian and started learning what other religions believed, I have not equated Christianity with Catholicism.
DeleteFor all the reasons you mentioned, plus they pray to Mary, which is useless, she's a human, just like you and I.
You can't put wine and bread in a fancy microwave and proclaim it to be the ACTUAL blood and flesh of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
And many more.
I don’t want to take up your blog to argue. It’s rude at best and it certainly isn’t my aim. But in regards to Mary, I have to ask:
DeleteHave you EVER asked anyone, here on this earth, to pray for you? People ask for others to pray for them all the time. Whenever there is any sort of tragedy people offer their prayers. Why? They are only human, so their prayers don’t matter?
What is the point of asking others to pray for you?
If you want to delete this that’s fine. If you find the topic interesting and don’t mind I’m up for it.
Thanks
You're perfectly fine, Shrimp. That's not being rude. I really don't want to get into a theological in depth discussion ... and I DON'T want to Catholic bash.
DeleteBUT there's a world of difference in asking your friends, family, and church family to pray for you and praying to a HUMAN who has passed away and can't hear you and can't intercede for you.
Sorry this going to get deep quickly.
Deletefrom the BUT:
why? If we believe the soul is eternal, and we believe in the resurrection ( people will be raised from the dead anew ) and we believe that people go to heaven ( or hell ) then how can we as Christians not believe that there are many souls there in heaven right now? Jesus himself told us that the least in heaven is greater than any on earth ( he was referencing John the Baptist and how he great he was here on earth but the point is there). Why would God listen to our prayers here on earth, but not once we are in heaven?
Christians are supposed to be a body of believers. A community. As Catholics we believe that just because someone has died doesn’t mean that they can no longer pray or hear us. Praying to them to pray for us is no different than asking fellow members of your church to pray for you. I don’t know that they can’t hear us. My faith tells me that the soul is eternal and reading in my bible I see that at the Transfiguration Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. If they appeared with Jesus that means that their souls are still in existence. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus recounts the rich man who died begging for Lazarus to be sent to place a drop of water on his tongue. That rich man is dead and yet very keenly aware of what is happening. Despite being dead he can hear and make requests. Yes it’s only a parable. But it’s instructive of several things, not the least of which is that the soul is eternal and despite death the soul can be aware of “ current events” for lack of a better term.
Sorry I’m like a dog with a bone. Just tell me to shut up and I’ll go back to lurking
Thanks
Original Anonymous.
DeleteSorry Shrimp, I paid really close attention and quizzed the priest when things seemed contradictory. I am not confused about what the Church teaches. Please note that the principal of the Catholic school contradicted what the church taught. A significant number of people who call themselves catholic really do not know their own religion.
As far as praying to Mary, I invite you to look up why Saul lost his kingdom. The Bible is clear you can talk to the dead. It is also clear you are not to talk to the dead. There are numerous other places where the Bible is explicit about don't do this, and the Catholics do it. One of the main things Christ did was eliminate the need for priestcraft, you can go directly to God, the Catholics reintroduced priestcraft. The Bible says call no man father. Don't get me started on "ever virgin Mary" when Jesus' brothers are referenced by name.
I could go on, but I will never convince a follower of Rome that they have been led astray, and Rome will never convince me they are anything more than heretics.
Shrimp, you are mistaken about being able to talk to the dead and the Lazarus story you are telling is ... wrong.
DeleteI will add to my comment later this evening but we cannot talk to the dead. Well, we can talk to them but they don't know it and can't hear it. I'll elaborate later today.
I look forward to it.
DeleteOkay. With my emphysema, I get tired very easily and I usually turn up my oxygen a little and take a nap, so that's what I had to do.
DeleteAnd before this goes much further, I don't want to get in a spat about every little verse in the Bible. I believe what I believe as a Christian because it says it in the Bible. I have NO and don't want no heated arguments with Catholics, they can believe whatever the priest tells them to believe. That's why they didn't want you guys to read the Bible and preached to you in Latin for ages.
Rest assured, there are MANY souls in Heaven.
Delete“Why would God listen to our prayers here on earth, but not once we are in heaven?”
You can’t show me anywhere in the Bible where we will be praying once we get to Heaven. Not saying it won’t happen but show me where it says that in the Bible.
“As Catholics we believe that just because someone has died doesn’t mean that they can no longer pray or hear us. Praying to them to pray for us is no different than asking fellow members of your church to pray for you.”
I’ll bet you can’t find that in the Bible anywhere. And you need to quit saying “As Catholics we believe” and start telling me where I can find the basis for those beliefs in God’s Word.
“My faith tells me that the soul is eternal …”
Mine too. That has nothing to do with prayers being used for intercession between humans and living humans on the Earth.
“In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus recounts the rich man “
The rich man is dead and in hell. Lazarus, the beggar, is in the bosom of Abraham. The rich man never talked to Lazarus, he talked to Abraham. BUT, in the great scheme of things, BOTH Lazarus and the rich man are both dead, neither one of them is alive on EARTH taking to a person in Heaven. Neither one of them heard any prayers because there were no prayers.
I'll be the first to admit that I am not the best at this, but I'll do my best.
DeleteYou appear to be a Sola Scriptura guy, and I respect that. So, I'll try to limit my replies to only what can be found in the bible, and not in Catholic dogma.
Prayers in heaven:
In the book of Maccabees, which I think some if not most Protestant faith exclude (but it does show that even the Jews believed in the power of intercession), Judah Maccabee had a vision of two men who had died. The first was the former high priest Onias, and in the vision, “With outstretched arms Onias was praying for the entire Jewish nation” (2 Macc. 15:12). When he saw the second man, Judah was told, “This is God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves the Jewish people and offers many prayers for us and for Jerusalem, the holy city” (2 Macc. 15:14).
The book of Revelation also shows the saints and angels interceding in heaven. In Revelation 5:8, we see the twenty-four elders, who appear to represent the leaders of the people of God in heaven, offering incense to God, which we infer as the prayers of the saints. In Revelation 8:3–4, we see an angel offer incense to God, incense mingled “with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar” in heaven.
As for my point with the parable, I was trying to point out (clumsily, I know) that the dead rich man wanted his still living brothers to be warned of what awaits them if they fail to heed the words of the prophets. So, even though he was dead, he still 1)had concern for those still living, and 2) was aware of their current state, hence the desire to have someone return from the dead to inform the brothers that they must listen.
As I said, it was a clumsy attempt.
I'll go no further as it appears I've irritated you and that was not my intent! Thanks for the time.
I'm not that good at this either but I give it a shot from time to time. Reminds me why I hate having theological discussions.
DeleteI had to look up "Sola Scriptura" and yes, I just found out that there is a Latin phrase that describes the belief that the Bible is God's Word and we should trust it alone and not any books written by man alone without Holy inspiration.
Catholic dogma means nothing to me. Not trying to be rude but Catholics believe in MANY things that are contrary to God's Word and Catholics believe in many things that cannot be found in the ONE BOOK, the Holy Bible, that is God's Word.
And there you go ... the Maccabees ... NOT in the Bible, NOT God's Word. But for the sake of discussion, weren't both those men in Heaven? I don't know this story because it's, again, not in God's Word.
The original discussion was whether humans could pray to dead humans and have the dead people intercede for them. Well, that's never happened and never will BUT if these guys were in Heaven, this "VISION" doesn't qualify for our discussion. AND it was a "vision" by a man ... I don't put much faith in a 'vision' of a man that isn't included in God's Word.
Stepping back a sentence or two, of course Jews believe in intercession. But they don't pray to a dead human.
The entire paragraph about Revelation doesn't qualify for our discussion either because it is about saints and angels interceding in HEAVEN. There are NO living humans praying to a dead human in this story.
And I'll stick with MY SAME argument about the rich man/Lazarus argument. NONE of those people were LIVING HUMAN BEINGS PRAYING TO A DECEASED HUMAN BEING.
That doesn't happen anywhere in the Bible.
This discussion doesn't irritate me. I just HATE having these kind of discussions on a blog. It's not the place as thoughts have to be abbreviated and typed out and I'm not good at shortening my thoughts or typing them out.
And Shrimp, this is NOT what our relationship should be based on. You're obviously a person who believes in Christ, as I do. We have the ONE thing that matters the most in life, in common. Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. No one sees the Father except through Him.
Maccabees is in the bible. It’s in the Catholic bible anyway. It’s also in the Torah, which forms the Old Testament, so I don’t know why it is excluded from other bibles. In truth that is one thing I never really understood. I get that translation is difficult and sometimes differs but the kernel of truth should still be there unless it was a wholly inadequate or inaccurate translation.
DeleteI read somewhere that more than a few of the apostles wrote down the teachings of Christ but only the four gospels that we know now were chosen when making the new Testament. I don’t the where’s or why’s. It’s actually part of what got me reinvigorated into my faith. The men who walked with Christ had something to reveal. Why were any of them excluded?
As far as your last paragraph;
That is true.
And I’ve always felt these kinds of discussions are best over a pint of whatever beer is preferred. As long as we remember the last few sentences while talking with each other we should be able to discuss and remain respectful and even friendly.
Cheers!
The Maccabees are NOT in the Holy Bible and unless my searches have been misunderstood by me, the Hebrew Bible.
DeleteMore relevant information I felt compelled to share.
The Reformation and the Protestant Canon
During the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin revisited the canon of Scripture. They emphasized the principle of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) and adhered to the Jewish canon for the Old Testament. The Apocrypha, including 1 and 2 Maccabees, was excluded because it did not meet the criteria of divine inspiration, prophetic authorship, and consistency with the rest of Scripture.
The Reformers affirmed that while the Apocryphal books might be historically or morally instructive, they were not inspired by God and therefore could not serve as the basis for doctrine.
Early Church Views
The early church opinion on the Apocryphal books:
Accepted as Useful but Non-Canonical: Many church fathers, such as Jerome and Athanasius, viewed 1 and 2 Maccabees as not divinely inspired. Jerome, who translated the Latin Vulgate, explicitly stated that the Apocryphal books were not part of the Hebrew canon.
Doctrinal Discrepancies
1. Prayers for the Dead 2 Maccabees 12:44-45 describes Judas Maccabeus praying for the dead, suggesting that such actions could help atone for their sins. This concept is not supported elsewhere in Scripture and contradicts the biblical teaching that salvation and forgiveness are through Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9; Hebrews 9:27).
2. Lack of Prophetic Authority Both books focus on historical and theological reflection rather than conveying direct words from God through a prophet. The absence of phrases like “Thus says the Lord” sets them apart from canonical writings.
3. Contradictions with Scripture While 1 and 2 Maccabees provide valuable historical insights, their theological claims—such as the concept of purgatory (implied by prayers for the dead)—goes contrary to the whole tenor of Scripture and doctrines.
I agree about these kind of discussions in this format except between learned theocrats? can frequently result in misunderstandings, misinformation, and two angry souls. That’s why I don’t do this very often (VERY SELDOM).
I agree with your last paragraph completely.
Cheers!
The Pope is not infallible unless he is speaking 'Ex Cathedra', which is a specific formulation that must be used in the pronouncement - none of the Commie Popes, not even Johnnie Roncalli the Red Pope (John XXIII) had the balls to attempt to make an Ex Cathedra pronouncement on something that was inconsistent with the faith.
ReplyDeleteAs Padre Pio once said, "There are enough cardinals in Hell for them to elect their own Pope."
Now you're speaking Catholic and I have no opinion.
DeleteAs a Catholic, we certainly do not believe the Pope to be infallible. Those that do are misguided. For a better understanding of The Church early history, I suggest reading up on Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch. This gives basis to how the early church was formed. There have been a few Popes who were overturned by The Church. Certainly not infallible. I'm old school and believe every Pope since the beginning of Novus Ordo (Vatican 2) is fallible and doing great harm to The Church.
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:32.
DeleteI'm glad that some Catholics don't believe that the Pope is infallible. He can't be. He's human. No one is perfect except Jesus. (The Holy Trinity)
It has chapped my shorts for years to see Popes make mistakes and still claim to be mistake proof.
Don't get me wrong, I'm nowhere near perfect either but I've never claimed it except in arguments with my wife ... (chuckle, chuckle.)
Thanks for your input.
Psalm 144, verses 1 and 2. The martial artists Psalm.
ReplyDeleteYeah ... the Warrior Psalm.
Delete